Composing trust #2: EU-Turkey cultural relations – what next?

Biography:

Mani Pournaghi Azar is a European cultural manager working internationally. Since October 2021 he is the head of the Goethe-Institut Istanbul/Turkey. Before, he was the director of the strategy and evaluation department at the Goethe-Institut’s headquarters in Germany, after leading the Goethe-Institut in Beirut/Lebanon. He previously worked as head of the EU Liaison Office at the Goethe-Institut in Brussels/Belgium and was programme manager for the transatlantic organization Villa Aurora, based in Berlin and Los Angeles.

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Biography:

Recep Tuna is a cultural manager, currrently advisor at the Dutch Consulate in Istanbul, and has also been based in Izmir for several years, acquiring extensive experience of cultural relations between Turkey and Europe. 

Link to LinkedIn profile

Biography:

Selen Akcali is manager at IKSV, the Istanbul foundation for arts and culture. She has PhD from Boğaziçi university and 20 years of experience in the field of cultural relations and cultural policy.

Link to LinkedIn profile

Damien Helly (00:00): You are listening to the Composing trust podcast, by culture Solutions – a series on European cultural action with the world. Is Europe still attractive? How is it perceived by outside the EU? How do Europeans promote culture together in the world, with which partners? What have they learned, what is their experience?

Our Composing Trust podcast series will address these issues. Welcome to you all! My name is Damien Helly, the co-author of this Composing trust series, by culture Solutions. Today, we will follow our colleague Szivlia Nagi in a roundtable on cultural heritage protection in crisis situations.

We are developing a podcast on bilateral relations between the EU and Turkey. The objective of this series is really to develop a podcast community of practise, interested in sharing, know how on international cultural relations with the EU and Europeans.  

Turkey has had for several decades the status of candidate to the EU. This has allowed bilateral relations to develop, including in the cultural fields. Even with some cooperation with the European Capitals of Culture. At the same time, in the last 20 years, relations have become more tense and complicated, with the management of migration flows, for instance, or issues around political dialogue, on human rights, etc. This, however, has not prevented cultural professionals to continue their cooperation work, and that is what we will talk about today.  

With the victory of Recep Tayip Erdogan at the last elections, there are fears that entire western and entire European rhetorics will flourish and that actions will be taken against pro-Western movements and minority groups in Turkey in particular the LGBT community. To address these topics.  

We have a world class panel with us today with extremely experienced experts that I will now introduce. Gokce, you’re an expert in cultural policies, a professor in cultural management, you have extensive research and advisory experience with various Turkish and international institutions. Welcome. Mani, you are the director of the Goethe Institute in Istanbul and you have led the Goethe Institute strategy departments in the past, among other positions in the Institute. Recep, now you are advisor at the Dutch Consulate in Istanbul. You have also been based in Israel for several years and you have. Extensive experience of cultural relations between Turkey and Europe. We will also listen to Selene, current manager at IKSV, that is, Istanbul foundation for arts and culture. She has PhD from Boğaziçi university and 20 years of experience in the field of cultural relations and cultural policy.   

So I would like to start with a general question about lessons learned. My dear guests, what in your view? And we learned from past and ongoing cultural relations between EU and Turkish partners. I would like to address the first question to Recep. You’re now working at the General Consulate of the Netherlands in Istanbul. Could you please tell our audience who you are and how your various roles in Turkeish cultural relations have been and what you have learned over the years? 

Recep Tuna: Hi, thank you very much for this nice introduction, Damien. This is Recep Tuna speaking. I define my profession as cultural manager. I studied economics, actually in the Technical University from Istanbul. I became a volunteer for a non-governmental organisation during my studies, called ARI movement. After my graduation. I also started my professional career in the civil society sector through our movement and with ARI movement. We were focusing on the membership process of Turkey to European Union and we were trying to encourage youth participation in political and social lives and we were also trying to promote the values of participatory democracies such as rule of law, transparency, accountability, local governance. And we were at our moment, we were involved in several projects supported by European Union Turkey delegation. For example, we were active in several Anatolian cities. In providing human rights trainings for women and also problem-solving methodologies with the involvement of youth in their local contacts, and yeah, I consider that period of is like training nationally and internationally engaged way.  

Then after a while I joined the team of the Consulate General of the Netherlands in Istanbul and I was mainly working for civil society support programmes and cultural affairs, and after 12 years I decided to move to Izmir and when I started my new life there, I got involved in Spaces of Culture project which Goethe Institute is taking the lead but Consulate of the Netherlands, the Swedish Consulate in Istanbul, and Institut francais together established a foundation for culture and arts as a consortium partner implementing in various cities in Turkey. So it is also a European collaboration with the involvement of Turkish leading civil society organisations. And during that period, I was also involved in artist and residency projects, again supported by European Union together with Turkish Republic, and that project aimed at contributing to the relations between public sectors and civil society through culture and arts. There was back then also b-mobile create together project which was mainly executed from Istanbul but in various cities of Anatolia as well.  

So when I look back, all these experiences through projects, I can say that sometimes relations  warmed up, sometimes they cool down, but there is a continuity in the relation. Political atmosphere is very important in that, but academic and civil society relations are always ahead of the politics. And what I learned during this process is that sustainability is important, but in the time of difficult conditions, resilience is also an important term and resilience is needed, not only during the political difficulties or hardships, but also during the global crisis, like the pandemic we had or in the future, we may have bigger problems related to the climate crisis or regional migration issues. 

Damien Helly: Thanks so much Recep for summarising such a rich career and already sharing some thoughts in terms of lessons learned. I would like to turn now to go Gokce, you have also followed the evaluation of the cultural landscape in Turkey and the relations with European partners. What are your main takeaways from these 20 years or so? Thank you. 

Gokce Okandan: Damien, thank you so much for the invitation and the opportunity for being with my colleagues on the session. It was a nice feeling listening to Recep because a lot of things have resonated, which also triggered my career. I started as a management scholar. I’m coming from management background and I started my PhD studies in 2003. From then on, because my PhD was on the corporate support of art in management, from then on, around 20 years as you have already mentioned, I was able to witness the development in our sector. By our sector, I mean the cultural and creative industries in Turkey, it is actually a sector where you see a lot of solidarity because of the challenges the of the artists and the cultural and art institutions are facing. So because of that, I am considering all of you as my colleagues. It was never the time of competition, it was always an urge for collaboration at stake. 

And the early 2000s, the vibe was towards Europe, and when I started to enter this circle, it was also very much supported by civil society because, as you know, Turkey has experienced a military coup and the military coup was a cut in the representation of civil society in Turkey. And after the Conference in Istanbul civil society has emerged in the late 90s together to produce together. At that point I see Recep has given a very important example because ARI movement has also political engagement, but also with civil society and corporate sector in the beginning of 2000, we were also seeing that corporate actors were interested in culture and arts, and I can see they have also invested towards it, so it was my PhD also like the opening of a museum. And hwe can see Istanbul foundation for culture and arts, an institution over at that time, maybe 40 years, 30 years old. They have made different collaboration with corporations.  

And there was this vibe and in 2005 we witnessed for the first time, a civil initiative has applied for European cultural capital, representative of Istanbul. It was also very strong and at that time very amiable collaboration because at the one of the main stakeholder, the municipality was represented by the right-now ruling party, although the political standing point was different. And the collaboration has emerged by civil actors and it has been at that time supported by the minister. But by the time in 2009, this coalition, let’s say, has taken some back steps because Turkey has introduced different kind of civil society actions, so we have experienced a kind of wave where civil society has also polarised the representation of right-wing civil society. Institutions were also at stake and they have been encouraged. So the democratic voicing of the general understanding of civil society has been again discussed.  

So during that time, because I was in academia, I was at Istanbul University which also happened to be a part of European projects. Mobility programmes, for instance Erasmus that we have used for different collaboration and. We have really experienced very strong. Links not only collegial links that has also led to guide our graduate students, for instance, to pursue their degrees abroad and also raise the level of our intellectual and academic conversation to different point. Those programmes for sure have been influenced by the state. One issue was the security issue because of the security problems in Turkey after the second military coup, after 15 of July, all the partners have withdrawn after their notice of the of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and the second issue was transparency in the budget of Turkish authorities. After audits, some budgets have been cut together with the marvellous opportunity for us have, but still with the solidarity of our European friends, and we have continued these programmes.  

The lessons learned are very much related to the suggestions of Recep about resilience, and this resilience has emerged most of the time from the individual collaboration. So people who were actors of this environment have collaborated and volunteered for the ecosystem. And the other thing is actually, it is an interdisciplinary field, although it is very much focused culture and policy management strategy, entrepreneurial efforts, social entrepreneurial efforts. So the lessons learned was Turkey has adapted to new trends and made use of different threads throughout this last 20 years. For instance, entrepreneurship was one issue. Although we lack the framework for not-for-profit organisation in Turkey, there were a lot of, you know, platform institutions in the representation of non-governmental organisations, so it is a learning ecosystem. So if the relations are fruitful, the learnings are becoming meaningful. 

Damien Helly: Great. I like the last this last formulation. It’s really, really nice bonding. Keep it for maybe a future project. Thank you so much for giving this historical depth of, you know, the current context. I think it’s a really, really precious you mentioned CCI – culture and creative industries. You mentioned polarisation, evolution, the role of private sector. You repeated resilience, but also spoke of solidarity. So thank you. These are the keywords I note it down. Mani as director of the Goethe Institute in Istanbul, you manage German initiatives as well as European initiatives, for instance by cooperating with the partners from the EUNIC network, the network of European cultural institutes. What are the guiding principles that you have learned to use when working with Turkish and European partners? 

Mani Pournaghi: Yeah. Thank you so much Damien for inviting me, not only as a contributor, but also, as Gokce was saying and when she was talking about the culture and civil society sector as a learning ecosystem, I consider myself also like as a learning participant. So it was very, very impressive to listen to you, and this leads maybe already directly to your question, Damien. When you ask what our guiding principles, I think first of all learning – also me working for the Goethe Institute as an individual, I consider myself also in my function first of all, as a learning person and somebody who listens, who tries to understand the environment and based on that, on like individual exchange on databases to develop based on that active programmes to contribute, at least with our European and international partners to this mentioned learning ecosystem, so this is maybe one principle, that is kind of let’s put it as a buzzword, maybe active listening, let’s say that’s one point. Yeah.  

And the second part I would say, I mean art and culture, that’s the beauty about it. It is nice, it is enjoyable, but it is also important for us that culture and arts in our understanding is also highly political, so it needs orientation, it is a seismograph for social economical, people-to-people, developments and art and culture – addresses these topics. So the second principle maybe I would like to mention here, it’s kind of a neat orientation or impact that is impact-driven that is also very important in my understanding. The third one just not to be too long, but I think, and this is maybe the most difficult part, is to stay constantly open and curious, like always let yourself surprised, get inspired and then it’s your role as an enabler, like to make something out of it. 

Damien Helly: Well, this, is very strong, it’s very concise, but these principles, I think carry a lot of ambition but also responsibilities and together with humility, and we recognised not only the institutional but also, I would say personal. So thank you for this. So I’m sure it will resonate with our colleagues here in the roundtable. So now that we have kind of set the scene about, you know your take and your experience and the key lessons that you have accumulated over the years, I would like perhaps to go deeper into some experiences to also share your knowledge and you know-how for our wider audience on certain initiatives that have been the sources of learning. So perhaps Recep, I would like to invite you to tell us a bit more about what you have learned from specific projects. I’m sure you have plenty of fantastic experiences to mention here. 

Recep Tuna: Because I’m an economist and I’m an expert on budget management and event management, I would like to elaborate more from the management side of the international collaboration projects, specifically with the focus on the European ones. So here it is important to mention one very attractive methodology – design thinking. So I apply always the principles of design thinking in any of the projects where you have various facilities, a different scope. That’s my approach, it is always analytical, so I use what I have learned from business administration lessons or event management experience through projects in this European collaboration project. Yeah, first important step is the preparation phase, the definition of the tasks and distribution of the responsibilities among the team.  

This is really important and from A-Z open communication is the key for success. So there are people who are involved in the project, no matter if they are managing the project or they are invited artists to participate or they are the audience, always communication channels should be encouraging for expressions. There are also questionnaires that have to be conducted during the implementation of the projects, but you can also go beyond this and encourage your team to have direct contacts with various parties involved in the project. EU funding guidelines are very detailed and sometimes more complicated than needed. We all know that, so there has to be a very dedicated coordinator to follow all the financial phases and the implementation steps. My humble advice, yeah, you cannot write. And the requirements of the job opening that you have to find a control freak as a coordinator because once you lose one side of the reporting, then it becomes a mess. So a very dedicated person who is motivated also about the objectives of this collaboration should be the leading person.  

When we come to the Turkish structure, the government system in Turkey is very much centralised. Then you are going to the different provinces of the country. You still need the support from this central government, especially the ministry. Is when it is in their authority because when you go to the provincial directorate. If they don’t know you your organisation, then you have to go through a security check which takes weeks and you are there for a limited time and if you must have the support of public institutions in the local level it will complicate your purpose there. That’s why I refer to the preparation phase at the very beginning of the project and when necessary to ask for the support of the central the government and ministries. There are also municipalities in the districts in the provinces. Relations with them are more relaxed and flexible than compared to the Provincial Directorate of Central Government, but then you have you have to find the balance in your relations with different organisations. Academy, universities play a crucial role in this as well, because the involvement of youth is one of the main aims of these European collaborations.  

Damien Helly: Very, very interesting. So Mani and Gokce, how would you react to the examples and the lessons learned presented, do you agree? Would you emphasise the same things? How does it resonate with your own experience? 

Gokce Okandan: Most of the things in this quite small ecosystem we have experienced together, I’m totally with Recep in some projects. Even I remember our talks for including your Erasmus mobility for internship and that kind of very technical stuff. It is also very much linked to my experience as professor of cultural management throughout the 20 years all the people I have educated and who are right now actively involved in our sector, not only in Turkey but also through migration and in different points in Europe. The cultural managers diaspora to Europe, so in in many European countries and cities they are also present and there are in close collaboration with their international partners. I see that this is a very crucial point for establishing a very healthy and fruitful relationship with a different European country.  

Recep has mentioned about design thinking. When we were introduced to collaborate with EUNIC partners, most of them have specific concentrations in the beginning of 2000, so mid of 2000 for instance, for the Dutch consulate, I would definitely say design – if there is anything design-related in Turkey then we would consult them and take their perspectives on that. So Goethe institute it was for years literature. So right now it has broadened. There is different representation as well. I would like to mention the efforts of British Council here, because I worked very well closely with them on the topic of entrepreneurship. In their programme of creative economy that they have launched in the middle of 2000s and we were very lucky. Our friends, our partners from different projects, were in charge of the programme at that time and also among our colleague, has finished the programme in the UK about creative economy and entrepreneurship and has launched the programme in Istanbul, through their support, through their entrepreneurship and economy. There was also very close collaboration between entrepreneurial ecosystem and social and creative industry, so Spaces of culture as Recep has mentioned is also a very important role. But that this was a kind of introduction to go beyond the Istanbul – it was always a meeting point for spaces of culture. But the actors were coming from different cities and we had the opportunity for empowering them in that sense. So these examples I think pretty much resonates with the professional sites, because we were expecting the actors to become more professional on the cultural management to continue their involvement in the sector. 

Damien Helly: I remember when we prepared this session you mentioned the concept of creative economy and the approach was brought to Turkey, and you said it was a very important step. Mani your go. 

Mani Pournaghi: I think many important points were already mentioned and also the specific projects and programmes both of you mentioned, spaces of culture. Maybe if you allow me two sentences about that, it’s a programme which was designed mainly by Osman Kavala, who since more than four years, is unjustly in prison. And he designed this programme together, he brought people together among us, the Goethe Institute and other European partners as the Dutch Cultural Institute, the Dutch Embassy, consulate and also the French Institute. The overall goal of this programme was empowerment, which mentioned that and specifically outside of the urban elite area. Yes, but empowering, supporting the independent cultural civil society and with this programme, mainly in Izmir, in Gaziantep, inJavaka. So one of the learnings from this programme now we are in the 5th year and it’s more needed than ever, I think. What is like? Huge learning, also according to the evaluations we have networking that we bring that we have an active vibrant network of independent cultural actors and that’s like mainly learning for us. And the other one, and I’m sure also Recep, you were involved in this programme also with different hats, let’s say now as representative of the Dutch Consulate is also mobility, mobility within Turkey, but also towards Europe. That is like key. So for the next two years, for example, in spaces of culture, our priority is mobility and like to create a platform for exchange and cooperation and co-creation, especially also with European equivalents, let’s say or European partners. So this is like really, in the focus and for that there are travels planned to the Netherlands, to Sweden, to Germany, to France, and so on.  

So these are the things and just to give you some evidence for what I’m saying on this example, and why networking is so important. There was this terrible earthquake beginning of the year in in February and immediately we sat together with our European partners and we’re wondering: How can we react? How can we contribute as cultural and educational institutions? And luckily we had this vibrant and lively network which we consulted and based on this expertise we were able at least to design some small programmes contributing at least a bit to this terrible situation. So this means like sustainable networks. Our key in or like a key learning in my understanding. 

Damien Helly: Well, thanks, Mani. Connecting the dots between what Recep and Gokce said earlier, also we imagine that design thinking probably played a role in in designing rapid response as well. Actually, you had other points to make, so maybe you would like to come. Back to what you were saying. 

Gokce Okandan: The general thing is about this launch of creative economy that you have mentioned after the naming the territory, cultural and creative industries. What does that mean in Turkey for Turkish circumstances and how to reflect it to the policy making level? That was one of our issues and I think, and I have personally contributed to the 11th strategic plan of Turkish Republic and many of our friends who have been invited to the commissions have, that if there are some mechanisms for following up for accountability and transparency in this policy-making atmosphere, then we canreally follow what can be the outcome of these suggestions that has been made. 

Damien Helly: I would like now to let you listen a statement by Selen Akcali, project manager at IKSV, who could not be with us today because she’s organising roundtables all around Turkey at the moment. But here is what she says about the cultural programmes that she is implementing with the support of the EU. 

Selen Akcali: Ortaklaşa has started in the beginning of this year, 2023 and it is a direct grant from the European Commission to IKSV with a budget of €3 million and it will last three years. The action aims to promote collaboration and cooperation between civil society organisations operating in the field of arts and culture and local authorities, namely municipalities. From our past researches and reports, we know that civil actors cannot participate in the local cultural policy making processes. So we seek to develop civil involvement in policy making. We aim to create real relationships and collaborations between news policies and social organisations. We believe that the participation of field actors to do strategic planning or for cultural policy constitutes one of the most important challenges to overcome for a democratic, pluralistic, cultural, artistic life in a city. So in order to reach these objectives, we have 3 programmes. We have a dialogue programme, we have a sub grant programme with a budget of €1.3 million, and we have a capacity building programme designed for cultural professionals. And the project covers the entire Turkey, we have regional roundtables, we have research, conferences, networking, and the sub grant programme is open to all civil society organisations operating in the field of arts and culture and to municipalities. 

In this project we now cooperate with EUNIC, European Union National Institutes for culture. We collaborate with Ankara and Istanbul clusters. And EUNIC will mostly contribute to our capacity building programme by providing export specialists, academics. What we want to do, you know, for example, at the end of 2023, we will have a workshop together designed with EUNIC to share some best practises from European Union countries. You know, for example, STD versus local civil society. Cooperation was quite inspiring. We will invite, for example, we think of the city of Lille in France. You know, we would like to have some cities from Europe to share their best practise if they have a good civil society – local authorities cooperation. If they have a model now, we would like to share this experience in Turkey civil society and local authorities. 

Damien Helly: What about best practises from Turkey. Are you also bringing them on the table? 

Selen Akcali: We will produce, I hope, this best practise because our first call for proposals is now open and it will be closed on July 12, so we will receive, we will start to receive the project proposals. And the first projects will start in October and I hope you will have some best practises from these projects because in the sub grants programme CSOS has to have partnerships with local authorities. This is mandatory. 

Damien Helly: So what do you think? Do you agree with the importance of dialogue on cultural policy at local level in cities and with municipalities? You mentioned earlier the importance of central government, but I would like to maybe listen to you on the on the local level. 

Recep Tuna: She mentioned the polarisation in the society.  It is also in every aspect of the governments and the social structure and also cultural structure in the country. For example, contemporary arts are mainly supported by the private companies owned by rich families in Turkey. But traditional arts and culture are mainly supported by the central government, and when it comes to the local level, we have the appointed governors from the central government and the elected mayors. If the ruling party is also strong in the local level and the mayors are from the ruling party, you have a strong representation of one part of the society. But if the mayors are from the opposition part of the society, then there is a room for more colourful relationship and sometimes there is a conflict. Sometimes there is a pressure in political and social levels. So you will never have a dull moment, boring moment in this country. You have all the opportunities to enjoy yourself. Sometimes a bit disappointment, sometimes with excitement. And municipalities have various sources, but it’s not that sufficient for a full execution of cultural policies and development of cultural policy, although that we solve some good examples of participatory approach. Still, it is under the authority of the ruling ones.  

But yeah, I mean, because I’m yeah, vulnerable optimist all the time. So I think everything will be fine at the end, but we need to work more and with the full dedication. Then when the society is polarised and when you approach the life from different perspectives, it’s not always very easy to reconcile. But still if we want to live in this country together, then we find room for collaboration. And yeah, the structure of municipality also serves for this purpose because they have the Council next to the mayors. So there different voices can be raised and no matter if you are from the ruling party or the opposition party, you have some platforms to raise your voice.  

Damien Helly: OK. Thank you so much Recep for zooming in on these complex spaces at local level. I think that was extremely interesting and also very, very poetically sometimes expressed. So thank you so much. Who else would like to react to this idea of the importance of local level? Yes. 

Gokce Okandan: If I may, I would like to add also support, point that he has mentioned about resilience and sustainability at the very beginning. This is the kind of reaction that we are able to show after 15 years. So in 2009, Invisible cities projects with Anadolu creators have supported local cultural policy making in Kars locally and Antakya. And then in 2010, European cultural capital, all Istanbul municipalities, 34 of them, have got the training on strategic management and participatory methodology. So these kind of examples, I don’t want to go into details, has also brought in specific cities. This kind of, you know, has strengthened this kind of muscle for including different stakeholders and caring for diversity. Just checking this point that is maybe not necessarily. Always considered as a part of to do so, that is actually my contribution. In order to establish that kind of democratic response, you also need time. And in order to educate people and have them show their reactions without hesitation. 

Damien Helly: Thanks for these complementary points. Mani? 

Mani Pournaghi: Yeah, yeah, I would fully subscribe to that. What you said and also then I think the point is a kind of a lack of, let’s say, cultural infrastructure on a local level. And I think that’s the right point in my understanding. How to do it on a local municipality level to provide this vibrant ecosystem an opportunity to flourish, let’s say in a way and like what we are observing or what our partners are describing and also what we see on the numbers of applications we receive. For example in the frame of our EU funded project, which is CultureCIVIC, we see that, for example, there’s shrinking spaces, like literally there’s no space for, let’s say, contemporary art. Not no space, but kind of limited space in some regions. And I think to provide this space like literal physical space, where contemporary arts, performance, theatre, films or literature discussions, I think this is like one main part or like one important component that say for a lively cultural infrastructure. Therefore, this approach on a local level is very good.  

And the second part we are observing also, and this is also in my understanding part of this package is like, yeah, co-production funds for independent collaborations, independent productions and for example, with CultureCIVIC, they were funded projects I mentioned, which we are implementing with Anadolu Kultur and the Istanbul Foundation for Arts and Cultures and European partners, shows the need for it. Because in total we support 200 projects for let’s say for example for infrastructure projects, for theatres, but also for project funding, and for each call we receive more than 200 applications, let’s say and it’s for me it’s an indicator there is a need. To put it positive, there’s also a lot of creativity and energy which is there, you know and I think this story also has to be told that there is such a lively culture scene all over Turkey and it needs the support it deserved. So I think and that’s what my understanding or my lesson learned, let’s say, is that we, as international European organisations, together with national partners, we should provide a platform where they can develop further. 

Damien Helly: Alright, very complimentary contributions from you 3. So we’re very, very lucky. We are reaching the end of this absolutely amazing roundtable and you know, given the current situation in Turkey and in EU-Turkey relations, how do you see the potential of future cultural relations and most importantly, perhaps what would be your, you know, key three recommendations to the Europeans and the Turkish partners who make sure that these relations continue to flourish. 

Recep Tuna: The potential is very high, but the realisation is limited. When I consider the relations I make some distinction in the relation types. So like the collaborative efforts, let’s say EUNIC performs. For example, we have sound of Europe or European cinema. Pilot projects under EUNIC structure. They are really effective and they are attracting an audience. Because it’s a collaborative effort.  

But I also attach a great importance for the bilateral relations, as the Dutch consulate in Istanbul and the embassy in Ankara, we also contribute a lot to the bilateral cultural relations. We have a budget to present Dutch arts and culture in Turkey, but then we have artists in here for the festivals or specific projects. Projects they develop their collaboration further and Turkish arts and culture entrepreneurs or pioneers that say or artists travel to the Netherlands. So this bilateral relation is important.  

And then I come to the issue of mobility, which also implies money. We mentioned mobility is very important. Unfortunately, these days we are experiencing a visa crisis. There are many reasons for that, but my urgent recommendation to all sides is that this visa crisis should be solved immediately because it has a deep impact in the relations. I don’t know what kind of negotiations are going on behind the curtains. Because we know the international politics as well, there is a security issue involved in the region. We are very much aware of that, but all the parties who have the authority in this very delicate issue, have to find a solution immediately.  

And yeah, networking is very important, but also strategic. Networking is important. Networking should lead to a consequence of good relations, close relations between the people of different countries, we always have a love and hatred relation when it comes to the political level between Greece and Turkey. But people of both countries, we are all brothers and sisters. All the time. And most of the time I spend my holidays in Greece. And no matter, it’s yeah, restaurant owner, tavern owner or hotel staff, we all hug each other while we are staying farewell and till next time, you know? So this human-to-human touch is important. But then the borders should not be let’s say, become walls, strict walls or high walls between the countries.  

And when we talk about CultureCIVIC, it is also good to refer to maybe Creative Europe because Turkey withdrew from creative Europe many years ago. And now there are negotiations that Turkey will rejoin the programme. It’s not happened yet, but I think it’s also related to the ongoing political discussions among the countries and I will finalise it with this. Yeah, the elections have consequences in the social life in Turkey, but yeah, the president, after the elections, made it very clear that Turkey still has the intention to develop further relations with European Union. It is always ups and downs in the internal politics, but when it comes to international politics, international relations, we are all dependent on each other geographically. We are on to each other. And this will never change. So I want to be optimist about the future and I think there will be again room for further collaboration. 

Damien Helly: Thanks so much Recep for this comprehensive overview and analysis of the prospects and also a very personal take on things. And I we appreciate that very much. Who’s next? 

Gokce Okandan: OK, I go. So we are actually very used to this human sides of these relations and actually these people who are shaping also the overall relations so positive. Constructive approaches play a very important role. So the three points I would like to mention are related to some problems, but I think there can be opportunities throughout these problems. One is the migration in Turkey, especially during migration and this is a huge topic that maybe the podcast series can address further, but we have seen in some projects, like in Spaces of cultures and through the participants. But there are amazing stories I would like to mention the success of Nefes music school, Ibrahim Muslimani in this case, how he has played a very important integrative part in the society, how he has contributed after the earthquake in the society. These are very important examples for overcoming the prejudices and the setbacks in the polarisation discussion.  

The second point is very unfortunate the problem is that Turkey is experiencing a creative migration to European countries, so this has maybe started after Gaza movement has strengthened through the military coup. And it’s happening also right now because of the changing political and economic circumstances. We know, especially in Germany and in the UK. So there was a Turkish diaspora, but this is a different representation. They call themselves new wave of migration. They are not directly linked with the previous diaspora. They are identifying themselves as world citizens. And most of them are fluent in English. Most of them are following the trends, they try to pursue their career in Germany and but also in their environment. If they are considered as representative of policy making, if they’re integrated in in some kind of solutions, I’m sure they can contribute a great deal. And we are also seeing some examples in German local policy.  

The final thing, I would like to address again the notion of mobility. It is very, very important for us in cultural policy studies. We have tried to find solution for the artistic representation for the mobility issues because of the lack of social security system in the country. The necessary documentation and paperwork cannot be presented as representation of the artist. So in that regard I consider 2005 convention of UNESCO a very important tool. The Convention on Promotion and Protection of Cultural Diversity, I am a supporter of this Convention, as a fellow of German Commission of UNESCO and as a member of Turkish Commission, so Turkey has ratified the Convention in 2017. I think also transnational conventions and networking groups and support groups are also problem solvers for these very emergent problems in our immediate experience. 

Damien Helly: Alright, Gokce. Thank you so much for bringing new lights on the on the future and emphasising the importance of mobility. Mani. 

Mani Pournaghi: A thing maybe to make everything possible you said now, my recommendation is very easy, but very important. Maybe we need more resources or at least keep the resources as we have them for cultural and educational and people to people contact. Why? Because especially in these times lately, at least after the Russian aggression against Ukraine, and therefore legitimate reason, the budgets for security and defence were increased, but I think complementary we should also keep up the people we should like, invest also in the long term and the people-to-people, contact and art and cultural exchange can heavily contribute to that. Because it can be a channel for communication. Let’s say. No, it is. It’s a tool for communication to keep the communication going on a personal level or on a human level, as Recep said. But also like yeah to stay in touch let’s say in, in a way, even and as it is in in long relationships. Sometimes it’s a bit difficult, but then you need to get over it and buy your art and culture. You have the opportunity to stay in touch, let’s say, and also to come closer again, in better times. So that’s why I think we should on a long term investment in this field. Just to keep the yeah, the communication going and as you also said here at the very beginning. It also comes with a lot of responsibility to actually also mention some examples of the new waivers now. But our societies, Germany and Turkey are like the closest outside of Europe. Let’s say no, not only in terms of numbers, but also culturally and of course we don’t agree on both sides on everything. But it’s important that we keep on talking to each other, trying to understand to each other. And I think both sides at the end will very much benefit all of this. And with that, I couldn’t find as poetic words as Recep, but I think that’s why that we are able to hug each other at one point. Again, it doesn’t matter with whom. I think it’s important to invest in this. 

Damien Helly: Certainly as stimulating money. So you can be. Sure of that. OK, I would like to share celines’s answer with you. When I asked her to give us 3 tips to Europeans working in the cultural field in Turkey, and I will then close the round table. 

Selen Akcali: I think we need to continue to develop programmes together. I think it’s very important to listen, to try to understand and to find solutions together. Because, you know, we have been in a very good relationship with the delegation in Ankara and you know, they ask us, you know, about the actual artists and cultures in in Turkey, we are in constant contact. But for this project we work together. We designed together the project, right? So I think the important thing they must see the needs of the cultural and artistic seen in Turkey. So after this need assessment, I think we new programmes must be designed. For example, as for this CultureCIVIC really, you know, small actors need financing because they don’t have enough financing for their projects. It was a very useful grant programme, so maybe you must continue to support this type of you know. Independent culture and art actors, you know, in these recent programmes, different European Union countries collaborated to design these programmes. I think it creates a scenario really and every, you know, country has a different. You know, point of view and different actors from these countries can contribute in a different ways in Turkish culture and art. So I think these scenarios must continue and we always have, you know, we are in constant contact with them. I think it’s a very good partnership model, not only with the IKSV, they also collaborate with different institutions, for example, like another, you know and we know we have this local know-how and data and they have different point of views and experiences from you know their specific country. So I think this is the best model which works very. 

Damien Helly: Well, thank you all for being with us today. I think it has been a fantastic roundtable. I feel I learned a lot about Turkey – EU cultural relations and I’m sure some of the wisdom you have shared with us today will be well appreciated by our audience in Turkey, but also in the EU and in other parts of the world. Thanks very much and all the best. 

Thank you for listening to today’s episode of our Composing trust podcast by culture Solutions! If you liked it, you can subscribe and follow us on your favourite podcast platforms, and contact us at culturesolutions.eu.